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	<title>Comments for »Me, myself and BI«</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.bissantz.com/index.php/comments/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.bissantz.com</link>
	<description>Bissantz ponders</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:39:13 +0100</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Hearing impaired renders you shortsighted by Clint</title>
		<link>http://blog.bissantz.com/audio-animated_time_series/comment-page-1#comment-16388</link>
		<dc:creator>Clint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.bissantz.com/?p=960#comment-16388</guid>
		<description>Fascinating.
It seems to me that it is the combination of audio and visual cues that makes this work so well. In other words, if the individual bar was not also highlighted in sequence with the tone, it wouldn&#039;t have nearly the same impact on understanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating.<br />
It seems to me that it is the combination of audio and visual cues that makes this work so well. In other words, if the individual bar was not also highlighted in sequence with the tone, it wouldn&#8217;t have nearly the same impact on understanding.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Ivy League Rock and Roll&#160;&#8211; A day with Edward Tufte by PL</title>
		<link>http://blog.bissantz.com/a-day-with-tufte/comment-page-1#comment-16374</link>
		<dc:creator>PL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:21:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.bissantz.com/a-day-with-tufte#comment-16374</guid>
		<description>I just attended Tufte&#039;s one day course on Presenting Data and Information yesterday, 11/11/09, and the quote Nicolas attributes toTufte actually is ET quoting T.S. Eliot. The day was pretty much the same as described in the blog. However, the &quot;Start up Reading List&quot; of the pages in his books that had to be read before the course started was handed out at registration by one of ET&#039;s people who hurredly mumbled something about &quot;the middle of the page&quot;. Seemingly contrary to ET&#039;s principles, that handout was so crowded with words and information that it was not easy to find the assignment - italicized text in the middle of the first page.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just attended Tufte&#8217;s one day course on Presenting Data and Information yesterday, 11/11/09, and the quote Nicolas attributes toTufte actually is ET quoting T.S. Eliot. The day was pretty much the same as described in the blog. However, the &#8220;Start up Reading List&#8221; of the pages in his books that had to be read before the course started was handed out at registration by one of ET&#8217;s people who hurredly mumbled something about &#8220;the middle of the page&#8221;. Seemingly contrary to ET&#8217;s principles, that handout was so crowded with words and information that it was not easy to find the assignment&#160;&#8211; italicized text in the middle of the first page.</p>
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		<title>Comment on No peaceful peaks by paresh</title>
		<link>http://blog.bissantz.com/time_series-mountain/comment-page-1#comment-16272</link>
		<dc:creator>paresh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 09:05:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.bissantz.com/?p=921#comment-16272</guid>
		<description>Well the problem is evident - how do we resolve it??

A simple statement in line graphs stating that constant slope indicates declining relative performance??

Unlikely to work as the first impression is created by the visual chart. The only solution use log scale only 

Would there be any situation where a linear scale would work as the major feature of a line graph is to show shape over time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well the problem is evident&#160;&#8211; how do we resolve it??</p>
<p>A simple statement in line graphs stating that constant slope indicates declining relative performance??</p>
<p>Unlikely to work as the first impression is created by the visual chart. The only solution use log scale only </p>
<p>Would there be any situation where a linear scale would work as the major feature of a line graph is to show shape over time.</p>
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		<title>Comment on No peaceful peaks by paresh shah</title>
		<link>http://blog.bissantz.com/time_series-mountain/comment-page-1#comment-16127</link>
		<dc:creator>paresh shah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.bissantz.com/?p=921#comment-16127</guid>
		<description>Essentially all line charts whether the area is filled in or not gives a wrong picture. The core strength of the line chart is to show the shape over time - without the log scale - errorneous!!!!!!!!! \if it onvolvrs comparison between two shapes ............................

.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Essentially all line charts whether the area is filled in or not gives a wrong picture. The core strength of the line chart is to show the shape over time &#8211;&#160;without the log scale&#160;&#8211; errorneous!!!!!!!!! \if it onvolvrs comparison between two shapes&#160;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.</p>
<p>.</p>
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		<title>Comment on No peaceful peaks by Matt</title>
		<link>http://blog.bissantz.com/time_series-mountain/comment-page-1#comment-16070</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:14:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.bissantz.com/?p=921#comment-16070</guid>
		<description>Well, yeah, if you&#039;re going to fill in the area under the plot, and with an unnecessary gradient at that, it&#039;s gonna look like a mountain.

And you use of the logarithmic scale here is...interesting. I see what you mean here, but I&#039;m not sure of the point. A constant slope on a log graph, for example, would require exponential growth of the whatever, which is almost certainly unsustainable.

Examples with real data would be useful here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, yeah, if you&#8217;re going to fill in the area under the plot, and with an unnecessary gradient at that, it&#8217;s gonna look like a mountain.</p>
<p>And you use of the logarithmic scale here is&#8230;interesting.&#160;I see what you mean here, but I&#8217;m not sure of the point. A constant slope on a log graph, for example, would require exponential growth of the whatever, which is almost certainly unsustainable.</p>
<p>Examples with real data would be useful here.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Presenting data correctly: perceptive priority by Nicolas Bissantz</title>
		<link>http://blog.bissantz.com/perceptive-priority/comment-page-1#comment-15947</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicolas Bissantz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.bissantz.com/?p=343#comment-15947</guid>
		<description>Agreed! Perceptive priority primarily hints to the difference in interpreting bars/columns and line graphs. As shown in other postings, there are valid reasons for not using zero as a graphical basis (&lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.bissantz.com/you-must-chop-axes&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;May you chop axes? No…you must!&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.bissantz.com/scale&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The scale is your message&lt;/a&gt;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed! Perceptive priority primarily hints to the difference in interpreting bars/columns and line graphs. As shown in other postings, there are valid reasons for not using zero as a graphical basis (<a href="http://blog.bissantz.com/you-must-chop-axes" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">May you chop axes? No&hellip;you must!</a> and <a href="http://blog.bissantz.com/scale" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">The scale is your message</a>)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Presenting data correctly: perceptive priority by OB Scientist</title>
		<link>http://blog.bissantz.com/perceptive-priority/comment-page-1#comment-15926</link>
		<dc:creator>OB Scientist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 23:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.bissantz.com/?p=343#comment-15926</guid>
		<description>First of all, I have to say that I agree with the concept you are trying to put forth here ... many times the graphs that media present are misleading and try to fool the public.  But, I have to say that I object with some aspects of this ... I would say that the axes need to allow one to clearly demonstrate a magnitude of the effect is meaningful and relevant.  If you insist on always having a zero, you can miss meaningful changes.  If the measures in question include the statistical variation (e.g. error bars), then you can graph the data based on meaningful differences.  This is not included in your example.

Here are a few examples:

1) Body Temperature.  Tylenol undoubtedly would have incredibly robust data in patients with fevers but the magnitude of the effect would be small.  A graph that showed temperature based on F (or even C) using an absolute 0 would not be very impressive.  But the meaningful range would probably only be from 95 deg to 105 deg.  

2) Blood glucose.  Normal mice have blood glucose values of ~160 mg/dL. The variability if very low with a coefficient of variation of ~5%.  Given that the intrinsic variability of the measure is low, then an increase of 20% would be highly statistically significant (and functionally quite ill), but it would not be very &quot;impressive&quot; if you require someone to show a &quot;0&quot; on the graph.  

3)  Body weight. A body weight of 0 is irrelevant and therefore should not be included on a graph.  If a group of mice (or people) start out weighing 40g (or 200 lb) and they all lost 5-10% that would be very significant and very functionally important.  But graphing it with a 0 would not suggest signficance.  I have seen a lot of data where investigators show BW graphs in ways that UNDEREMPHASIZE parameters that are highly regulated. They see a 5% weight loss and think is means nothing, but in fact it can be quite important.   

Two other examples to consider ... Again Temperature ... We use Farenheit and Celcius, each of which have their own meaning of 0.  You might extend your argument to say the only real measure of temperature is Kelvin and therefore all data should add 273 to it.  In truth, Celcius and Farenheit just defined new 0 values based on practical experience.  That is what one does if they cut an axes short.  

Another example to consider would be time ... what is 0 time?  Going back to the big bang?  Birth of Christ?  2009?  Again, one usually selects at &quot;time 0&quot; that is relevant for the data being presented.  

In both cases, as I think should be argued for scientific data, the person presenting the data needs to be fair about what they are presenting.  Data with variances should be different than that without.  There should be some consideration of RELEVANCE of the magnitude of the effect.  However, I do agree that often popular media overlook this aspect of data presentation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, I have to say that I agree with the concept you are trying to put forth here&#160;&#8230; many times the graphs that media present are misleading and try to fool the public.  But, I have to say that I object with some aspects of this&#160;&#8230; I would say that the axes need to allow one to clearly demonstrate a magnitude of the effect is meaningful and relevant.  If you insist on always having a zero, you can miss meaningful changes.  If the measures in question include the statistical variation (e.g. error bars), then you can graph the data based on meaningful differences.  This is not included in your example.</p>
<p>Here are a few examples:</p>
<p>1) Body Temperature.  Tylenol undoubtedly would have incredibly robust data in patients with fevers but the magnitude of the effect would be small.  A graph that showed temperature based on F (or even C) using an absolute 0 would not be very impressive.  But the meaningful range would probably only be from 95 deg to 105 deg.  </p>
<p>2) Blood glucose.  Normal mice have blood glucose values of ~160 mg/dL. The variability if very low with a coefficient of variation of ~5&#160;%.  Given that the intrinsic variability of the measure is low, then an increase of 20&#160;% would be highly statistically significant (and functionally quite ill), but it would not be very &#8220;impressive&#8221; if you require someone to show a &#8220;0&#8221; on the graph.  </p>
<p>3)  Body weight. A body weight of 0 is irrelevant and therefore should not be included on a graph.  If a group of mice (or people) start out weighing 40g (or 200 lb) and they all lost 5&#8211;10&#160;% that would be very significant and very functionally important.  But graphing it with a 0 would not suggest signficance.  I have seen a lot of data where investigators show BW graphs in ways that UNDEREMPHASIZE parameters that are highly regulated. They see a 5&#160;% weight loss and think is means nothing, but in fact it can be quite important.   </p>
<p>Two other examples to consider&#160;&#8230; Again Temperature&#160;&#8230; We use Farenheit and Celcius, each of which have their own meaning of 0.  You might extend your argument to say the only real measure of temperature is Kelvin and therefore all data should add 273 to it.  In truth, Celcius and Farenheit just defined new 0 values based on practical experience.  That is what one does if they cut an axes short.  </p>
<p>Another example to consider would be time&#160;&#8230; what is 0 time?  Going back to the big bang?  Birth of Christ?  2009?  Again, one usually selects at &#8220;time 0&#8221; that is relevant for the data being presented.  </p>
<p>In both cases, as I think should be argued for scientific data, the person presenting the data needs to be fair about what they are presenting.  Data with variances should be different than that without.  There should be some consideration of RELEVANCE of the magnitude of the effect.  However, I do agree that often popular media overlook this aspect of data presentation.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Needless needles by Stephen Hampshire</title>
		<link>http://blog.bissantz.com/design-aid/comment-page-1#comment-15080</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Hampshire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 08:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.bissantz.com/?p=871#comment-15080</guid>
		<description>Excellent post, Nicolas. You&#039;ve made a similar point before, but I think this really explains very clearly *why* numbers are better in most, but not all, applications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post, Nicolas. You&#8217;ve made a similar point before, but I think this really explains very clearly *why* numbers are better in most, but not all, applications.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Criss-crossing circles by Matt Healy</title>
		<link>http://blog.bissantz.com/criss-crossing-circles/comment-page-1#comment-14164</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 03:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.bissantz.com/?p=584#comment-14164</guid>
		<description>How about using a heatmap?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about using a heatmap?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Speechless not numberless by Matt</title>
		<link>http://blog.bissantz.com/attribution/comment-page-1#comment-13918</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.bissantz.com/?p=790#comment-13918</guid>
		<description>I have been contemplating this same topic.  Verbal descriptions can be misleading, even among people of the same background.  For another data set exploring this issue see Psychology of Intelligence Analysis by Richards Heuer.  Figure 18 of Chapter 12 compares several statements of probability against what various people thought they meant.  The terms, probable, probably and likely are particularly interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been contemplating this same topic.  Verbal descriptions can be misleading, even among people of the same background.  For another data set exploring this issue see Psychology of Intelligence Analysis by Richards Heuer.  Figure 18 of Chapter 12 compares several statements of probability against what various people thought they meant.  The terms, probable, probably and likely are particularly interesting.</p>
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